It seems to me that most pro Palestine folks aren’t pro Palestine *because it’s an Islamic state* or some such, it’s because they principally reject the aggression of Israel towards the Palestinian people. I mean, just speaking from personal experience, but when religion is brought up in relation to Israel Palestine by my more leftist friends, it tends to be in a historical context (an analysis of who aggressed first and why and so forth) with the purpose of determining that Israel was the aggressor and thus, at fault for the death of the Palestinian people. Now, none of that is to say those are the correct interpretations of the facts, just that the motivation behind the Israel-Palestine protest seems more humanitarian to me, then some attack against Islamophobia.
None of the above undermines the fact that the phenomena you’re talking about does occur (leftists defending Islam) I just think Israel-Palestine is a strange choice because that doesn’t seem to be the primary motivator (at least to me).
Regarding your last question: why do extreme leftists hate America? Could it be the trauma of subverted expectations?
I cannot prove it, but I get the sense that most of the far leftists come from US middle class families. These families have been upwardly mobile - their standard of living has reliably increased since the 1940s. The kids were taught that they should do well in school, and for the most part they’ve done fairly well, enough to get into colleges. If my own experience in the US educational system is typical, they were regularly praised by their teachers and parents for even relatively middling successes.
But unless they studied STEM subjects, upon graduation from college they find that the reliably improving middle class existence of their parents is not guaranteed. It requires, not to put too fine a point on it, dedication and hard work, those old gods of the copybook headings (as indeed it did for their parents and grandparents). Meanwhile, they see many in their cohort succeed. They grow envious, perhaps even embittered. Most people who experience a relative decline in their social status would not accept that it is entirely (or even partially) their fault. Those who enviously see hard-working immigrants succeed might gravitate towards the nativist far right; those who grew up in an environment where such thinking was frowned upon end up instead blaming the “corrupt system”, eg America as a structural concept. (I wince at putting it this way, but I think this might be in line with their thoughts.)
This is all pop psychology on my part and I might be well off base here. Feel free to contradict me.
I think you underestimate how much Trump's Muslim ban and the "Obama is a Muslim" stuff during the war on terror mattered here. It's not that they like that Muslims hate America, it's that they saw a lot of the really xenophobic attacks against them and are reacting to that. You can say that's dumb or whatever, but I think this post suffers from not even considering this explanation
The trauma, I suspect, is the trauma of learning about the horrors of the world in general. For example, many my age genuinely looked up to Obama as a figure leading the way to a hopeful, progressive vision of the future. Many never quite recovered from the knowledge that drone strikes that Obama ordered often killed civilians as a side effect. There has been a similar effect more recently, for those younger than I am, with Bernie Sanders and Israel-Palestine.
Since the Sixties, the progressive left has been supporting a) abortion; b) out-of-wedlock co-habitation; c) secularism (no religion) and the list continues. All of these ideas were to give them "freedom" from societal norms. As many of these ideas became somewhat mainstream, the progressive left needed new ideas and new causes. They gathered under the Pride flag to support LGBTQ and ditched the women; Announcing pronoun in the email signature or Linked-in profile was their new "freedom". As the progressive left was critically devoid of intellectual argument to support their causes, they needed to support DEI instead of merit. After the 2024 Presidential election, people from left and right came together to vote against these ideas promoted by the progressive left that were destroying cities like New York and San Francisco and making them inhabitable for everyone except for the politicians, the homeless and the street gangs. If the DNC continues their support for progressive left leaning ideas that are not helping the mainstream America, they can say goodbye to the Whitehouse in 2028. Talking to average American, it is easy to see their rejection of progressive left ideology. Progressive left's infatuation with Hamas and other Muslim terrorists is shocking. As more and more muslims become well established in the city councils, Governor's Mansions, the Senate and Judiciary, the progressive left will have no choice but to look for their next "cause". By then, it would be too late for America to reverse the damage done to the society.
It seems to me that most pro Palestine folks aren’t pro Palestine *because it’s an Islamic state* or some such, it’s because they principally reject the aggression of Israel towards the Palestinian people. I mean, just speaking from personal experience, but when religion is brought up in relation to Israel Palestine by my more leftist friends, it tends to be in a historical context (an analysis of who aggressed first and why and so forth) with the purpose of determining that Israel was the aggressor and thus, at fault for the death of the Palestinian people. Now, none of that is to say those are the correct interpretations of the facts, just that the motivation behind the Israel-Palestine protest seems more humanitarian to me, then some attack against Islamophobia.
None of the above undermines the fact that the phenomena you’re talking about does occur (leftists defending Islam) I just think Israel-Palestine is a strange choice because that doesn’t seem to be the primary motivator (at least to me).
I'm sympathetic to this point but working against it you have:
* The rhetoric people use
* The failure to draw meaningful differences between the Israeli government, the people of Israel, and Jews in general
* The intensity of leftists on this issue compared to other conflicts
* The unwillingness of defenders of Palestine to admit to any deficiencies of Hamas or 'their' side of the conflict in general
So yes, people like the ones you're describing exist (I think I'm one of them!) but they get drowned out by the more tribal members of the left.
Thank you Michael, this is an interesting post.
Regarding your last question: why do extreme leftists hate America? Could it be the trauma of subverted expectations?
I cannot prove it, but I get the sense that most of the far leftists come from US middle class families. These families have been upwardly mobile - their standard of living has reliably increased since the 1940s. The kids were taught that they should do well in school, and for the most part they’ve done fairly well, enough to get into colleges. If my own experience in the US educational system is typical, they were regularly praised by their teachers and parents for even relatively middling successes.
But unless they studied STEM subjects, upon graduation from college they find that the reliably improving middle class existence of their parents is not guaranteed. It requires, not to put too fine a point on it, dedication and hard work, those old gods of the copybook headings (as indeed it did for their parents and grandparents). Meanwhile, they see many in their cohort succeed. They grow envious, perhaps even embittered. Most people who experience a relative decline in their social status would not accept that it is entirely (or even partially) their fault. Those who enviously see hard-working immigrants succeed might gravitate towards the nativist far right; those who grew up in an environment where such thinking was frowned upon end up instead blaming the “corrupt system”, eg America as a structural concept. (I wince at putting it this way, but I think this might be in line with their thoughts.)
This is all pop psychology on my part and I might be well off base here. Feel free to contradict me.
I think you underestimate how much Trump's Muslim ban and the "Obama is a Muslim" stuff during the war on terror mattered here. It's not that they like that Muslims hate America, it's that they saw a lot of the really xenophobic attacks against them and are reacting to that. You can say that's dumb or whatever, but I think this post suffers from not even considering this explanation
The trauma, I suspect, is the trauma of learning about the horrors of the world in general. For example, many my age genuinely looked up to Obama as a figure leading the way to a hopeful, progressive vision of the future. Many never quite recovered from the knowledge that drone strikes that Obama ordered often killed civilians as a side effect. There has been a similar effect more recently, for those younger than I am, with Bernie Sanders and Israel-Palestine.
Since the Sixties, the progressive left has been supporting a) abortion; b) out-of-wedlock co-habitation; c) secularism (no religion) and the list continues. All of these ideas were to give them "freedom" from societal norms. As many of these ideas became somewhat mainstream, the progressive left needed new ideas and new causes. They gathered under the Pride flag to support LGBTQ and ditched the women; Announcing pronoun in the email signature or Linked-in profile was their new "freedom". As the progressive left was critically devoid of intellectual argument to support their causes, they needed to support DEI instead of merit. After the 2024 Presidential election, people from left and right came together to vote against these ideas promoted by the progressive left that were destroying cities like New York and San Francisco and making them inhabitable for everyone except for the politicians, the homeless and the street gangs. If the DNC continues their support for progressive left leaning ideas that are not helping the mainstream America, they can say goodbye to the Whitehouse in 2028. Talking to average American, it is easy to see their rejection of progressive left ideology. Progressive left's infatuation with Hamas and other Muslim terrorists is shocking. As more and more muslims become well established in the city councils, Governor's Mansions, the Senate and Judiciary, the progressive left will have no choice but to look for their next "cause". By then, it would be too late for America to reverse the damage done to the society.
Q4P and Hamas have one thing in common, and for the former (who are not blind and not idiots) it’s the most important thing: their enemies. Us.