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PublicIntellectualsforCharity's avatar

My friend Jay Moss wrote an email to Huemer about this paper:

I recently read your article "A Paradox for Weak Deontology," and I have some issues with the argument you present.

"Torture Transfer" is an interesting hypothetical. It raises some interesting questions about individuating actions, how the moral wrongness of an action depends on the broader "plan" that it's a part of, whether the fundamental unit of moral analysis should be actions vs plans, etc. but I don't think it's a problem with deontology per se. Anyway I would deny the 2nd and 3rd premise.

Adjustment 1 is permissible because it's permissible to violate someone's rights if (1) doing so is necessary to provide sufficient compensation to that person and (2) you actually plan on providing such compensation. For example, let's say that Mary is drowning in the ocean and the only way to rescue her is to knock her unconscious (since drowning victims tend to flail which endangers themselves and the rescuer). In this case, presumably most deontologists would agree that knocking Mary unconscious is permissible because (1) doing so is necessary to rescue her and (2) you actually plan on rescuing her.

Now, the one trick here is the phrase "is necessary". Typically, when we speak of one action being necessary for another action (such as the drowning person example), we're talking about causal necessity, i.e. action X is permissible if X is causally necessary for action Y, where Y sufficiently compensates the "victim". But in the Torture Transfer case, what I mean is moral necessity, i.e. action X is permissible if X is morally necessary for action Y, where Y sufficiently compensates the "victim". For example, let's say that in the drowning case, I can actually save Mary without knocking her unconscious.

However, for whatever reason, I can do this only if I drown 5 other innocent persons (e.g., I know that if I try to save Mary without knocking her unconscious, she will flail so much that I need to steal a flotation device used by 5 other people). Now, in this case, knocking Mary unconscious is not causally necessary to rescue her (i.e. I could just drown the 3 other innocent persons and save Mary without knocking her unconscious).

However, knocking her unconscious is morally necessary to rescue her (if I don't knock her out, then rescuing her [which involves drowning 3 innocents] would be impermissible). Thus, I'm justified in knocking Mary unconscious, because (1) doing so is morally necessary to rescue her (which I'm assuming is "sufficient compensation" for the knockout) and (2) I actually plan on rescuing her.

Adjustment 2 is permissible for similar reasons, except in the reverse. Adjustment 2 is permissible because it's permissible to violate someone's rights if (1) doing so (or at least having had a plan to do so) is necessary to make a previous action morally permissible, (2) the previous action has been performed, and (3) the previous action sufficiently compensates the "victim" for the current rights violation (the compensation came before the harm).

Unfortunately, I think the only hypotheticals that work for this are fairly similar to the Torture Transfer case. But I think the principles themselves make sense. Also I've been speaking of these as examples of permissible rights violations, but you might not classify an action as a rights violation if the "victim" is sufficiently compensated. Maybe, but it doesn't really change the argument much. Also, permitting rights violation so long as there is sufficient compensation isn't consequentialist, since I'm focusing on if the compensation is directed to the same person such that they are better off after the compensation.

Another way around this might be to adopt a kind of two-level deontology, similar to rule-consequentialism. E.g. under rule consequentialism, actions are not the fundamental unit of moral analysis. Rules are the fundamental unit of moral analysis. First, we talk about whether rules are good/bad (in a consequentialist sense). Then, actions would then be judged as right/wrong based on their accordance to the best rules.

You could apply similar reasoning to a two-level deontology. E.g. you might say that it's not actions that are the fundamental unit of moral analysis. Rather, first, we would talk about whether rules or plans or norms are right/wrong in some deontological sense (e.g., a plan might be wrong deontologically if it's execution on net results in the infringement of an individual's autonomy/freedom.

Note that this is not rule consequentialism, since it's not saying that a plan is permissible if it limit someone's autonomy/freedom so long as someone else's autonomy/freedom is promote; rather, it's saying that a plan that involves local limitations on someone's autonomy/freedom is permissible so long as that person's total freedom/autonomy is promoted).

Then, actions would then be judged as right/wrong based on their accordance to the best plans/norms/rules (as judged by the deontological theory). I'm not saying I accept this, but this is something I've thought about before and it doesn't strike me as implausible.

Either way, I think the spirit of the response here is that deontologists don't need to fetishize individual actions in a vacuum in the way that the hypothetical suggests. I don't think there's a good reason to believe that our moral assessments of an individual's actions shouldn't be sensitive to other actions made by an agent (even if those other actions have no causal relevance to the current action) or the broader plan that the agent is trying to carry out. I think any plausible moral theory is going to assess not just individual actions in a vacuum, but rather the collections of actions based on their relation to the broader plan/project that the agent takes to motivate the individual actions.

This is somewhat similar to Kant's point that we cannot judge acts in a vacuum. Rather we should judge the act and the maxim that the agent takes to justify the act. Perhaps a similar point can be said here: rather than just judging an action, we judge the act, the maxim, and/or perhaps the guiding project that motivates the act. And our judgment at each level of analysis can be sensitive to deontological considerations without falling prey to these kinds of hypotheticals.

Dr. Huemer replied:

Some things to think about:

(a) Say we have the principle:

It's permissible to violate A's prima facie rights if (i) one plans on providing adequate compensation, and (ii) the prima facie rights-violation is necessary to provide that compensation.

Is it necessary that A consent, or may one do so without consent? If A must consent, then stipulate in my scenario that A doesn't consent.

Suppose you say A need not consent. Is it permissible for someone (say, the government) to take your house without your consent and destroy it, provided that they later pay you adequate compensation? Assume the compensation exceeds the value of the house, yet you did not consent. This strikes me as impermissible.

You might say that taking the house wasn't necessary to providing the compensation, since the government could have given you money anyway. But suppose that the government gets the money that they're going to pay you with from Walmart, which is paying the government for the land that your neighborhood is on. So they wouldn't have the money unless they were able to deliver the land to Walmart.

(b) Suppose that I perform Adjustment 1 without intending to perform Adjustment 2. (Or perhaps, at the time I do Adjustment 1, I haven't yet decided whether to do Adjustment 2.) This, on your view, is impermissible.

Then, after I perform this wrongful action, I reconsider whether I should do Adjustment 2.

Would this be permissible? It seems that the answer is no, because Adjustment 1 was impermissible, and it will continue to have been impermissible regardless of whether I do Adjustment 2, because I did not have the required intention when I did Adjustment 1. It is counterintuitive that the two actions are now both impermissible.

(c) Suppose that I just performed Adjustment 1, and I can't remember what my intentions were at the time. Is it now permissible for me to do Adjustment 2? It is counter-intuitive that I must figure out what my intentions were in order to know whether I may do Adjustment 2.

(d) A more tangential but interesting point: The scenario is somewhat reminiscent of this version of the Organ Harvesting case discussed by Judith Thomson: Assume the five sick patients are all sick because the doctor deliberately infected them with diseases of different organs. Later, he realized that murder is wrong, so he wants to remedy his mistake. So he comes up with the plan to kill 1 healthy patient and transplant the organs to the five people he infected. Would this be permissible?

Thomson says no (as any deontologist will agree). But note that if he doesn't kill the healthy patient, then the doctor will have murdered 5 people; if he kills the healthy patient, he will only have murdered 1 (since the other 5 will survive). And murdering 1 is surely less wrong than murdering 5. So why shouldn't he kill the healthy patient?

I think this might be relevant, because it seems to suggest that you can't really make up for a rights-violation, or redeem a previous wrong, by committing another rights-violation (even if the latter would compensate the victims of the previous action). At least, that's one way of interpreting the lesson of the example.

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technosentience's avatar

Thinking about it, in both situations you are describing, available actions don't seem to cause proscribed harms. In the torture case, one's goal is to reduce the net amount of pain caused, and someone experiencing more pain is an unfortunate side-effect. The bank hack case is similar.

Compare with the trolley problem. In the regular trolley problem, I think it's permissible to switch tracks, and the resulting death is merely collateral damage. However, my intuitions say that if you had to actively push someone onto the tracks to stop the train, that would be impermissible.

Perhaps the difference between those is whether someone's suffering is an accidental effect, or an instrumental part of your goal. Likewise, in the torture case, if only one person was connected to the machine, flipping the switch would have no downsides.

I'm not sure this actually a consistent distinction, but let's suppose so. Then, maybe a thought experiment involving obviously proscribed harms would give us more insight into the problem.

I struggle to think of one though: the generalized example you gave almost seems to rule cases like Organ Harvesting out.

EDIT: re-reading this post, I notice your stipulation about the harm in the torture case being instrumental to increasing the overall welfare. I still think it does not make it a proscribed harm, though.

Consider: normally, murdering another person to save one's life is impermissible. However, if someone credibly threatens to kill you unless you kill another person, I feel like you're at least excused in doing so. The adjusted Torture Transfer case is similar: it's as if a malevolent force pre-arranging this situation for you makes it morally responsible for rights violations caused.

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